Lyndon B. Johnson and Clarence M. Mitchell Jr. on 4 May 1965

Transcript

Edited by Kent B. Germany, with Kieran K. Matthews and Marc J. Selverstone

After his November 1964 election, President Johnson made a voting rights bill a top priority and instructed acting Attorney General Nicholas “Nick” Katzenbach to begin developing legislation. The events of Bloody Sunday on 7 March 1965 and the ensuing struggle over the Selma to Montgomery march accelerated the White House’s plans. On 15 March, before a joint session of Congress, Johnson delivered a dramatic speech that proposed a landmark voting rights bill that would give the federal government the authority to oversee local voter registration and election procedures. The heart of the bill rested on the prohibition of literacy tests and an automatic trigger that could be used to send federal registrars into counties with a demonstrated history of racial discrimination in registration, in this case where fewer than half of eligible voters had been able to cast their ballots in the 1964 presidential election. That component would later come under attack by a failed Republican substitute bill pushed by the House minority leadership under Gerald R. “Jerry” Ford Jr. [R–Michigan] that would require 25 local complainants to activate the registrars. From early April until mid-May, the major sticking point in the Senate involved the best way to eliminate poll taxes in state and local elections. Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, and Virginia still used the discriminatory measure for state and local races but could not in federal races because the 24th Amendment, ratified in January 1964, had prohibited it in contests for federal positions. A key dilemma, however, was that one other state, Vermont, continued to use an old procedure requiring a $1 tax for participation in town hall meetings, although it was not for racially discriminatory purposes.

The administration supported Attorney General Nicholas “Nick” Katzenbach’s finding that banning poll taxes in voting rights legislation could cause the bill to be unconstitutional, and that the better route would seek an end through the courts. Since early April, a group of liberal senators had pushed for an amendment to the voting rights bill to ban the taxes outright. This so-called Kennedy amendment was championed by Edward M. “Teddy” Kennedy [D–Massachusetts]—and by his brother Robert F. “Bobby” Kennedy [D–New York]—and on the Republican side by Jacob K. Javits [R–New York]. It also reflected the wishes of the major civil rights organizations. On 17 April, Senate Minority Leader Everett M. Dirksen [R–Illinois] announced his backing of the administration’s position. Joined on 23 April by Senate Majority Leader Michael J. “Mike” Mansfield [D–Montana], they put forward a substitute bill countering the liberal version. Demonstrating the administration’s delicate position, its own floor leader for the voting bill, Philip A. “Phil” Hart [D–Michigan], advocated for the Kennedy amendment. In the Senate, the struggle continued for several weeks. On 3 May, liberals rebuffed the Senate leadership and redoubled their fight for the ban. On 11 May, they fell short by four votes as the Senate narrowly rejected the Kennedy amendment, 49–45. The issue did not die, however, because the House Judiciary Committee, chaired by liberal Emanuel “Manny” Celler [D–New York], reported out a bill the next day that had the ban intact, and the Senate liberals persisted in opposing the administration. On 19 May, the liberals compromised to make way for a Senate bill without the ban, setting up a final resolution in House–Senate Conference Committee. All along, Johnson feared that the skirmish could give opponents a chance to weaken or delay the bill and, almost as importantly, to slow down the rest of his Great Society initiatives. The Senate passed its final bill on 26 May (after invoking cloture to shut down debate on 25 May). [note 1] “Ban on Poll Tax Argued in Senate,” New York Times, 24 April 1965; E. W. Kenworthy, “Senate Liberals Agree to Fight on Voting-Bill Ban on Poll Tax,” New York Times, 4 May 1965; E. W. Kenworthy, “Ban on Poll Tax Backed in House,” New York Times, 13 May 1965.

Getting the bill through the House proved a slower process, as House Rules Committee chair Howard “Judge” Smith [D–Virginia] kept the bill from getting a rule by sending it to the floor until 1 July, taking up the full 21 days allowed by procedure.[note 2] Joseph Hearst, “Voting Rights Bill OK’d for House Action,” Chicago Tribune, 2 July 1965. The Republicans then offered a substitute bill by Gerald Ford and William M. “Bill” McCulloch [R–Ohio] that challenged the triggering mechanism and revivified the poll tax issue. It attracted support from segregationist southerners, but was ultimately defeated. On 10 July, the House passed a bill that fell in line with the administration’s policy except on the poll tax, forcing the House–Senate Conference Committee to opt for the court solution. Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act into law on 6 August 1965 and prepared to send in registrars to almost 15 southern counties and parishes. In March 1966, the Supreme Court’s ruling in Harper v. Virginia struck down the state/local poll tax.

 

The Johnson White House tape recordings during the period from April to July 1965 captured some of the negotiations that brought about resolutions to the poll tax problem and Republican opposition in the House. The tapes also documented in detail the President’s repeated statement of the Katzenbach argument, Johnson’s own history in favoring court action on poll taxes, and his not too subtle concern that Bobby Kennedy was in a conspiracy to undermine his presidency. Johnson’s concerns were not merely his own. Several journalists along the way wrote about a perceived Teddy–Bobby tag team against the administration, with one columnist declaring that the Kennedy brothers were “engaged in guerrilla action against” Johnson’s agenda.[note 3] Walter Trohan, “Two Kennedys Engaged in guerrilla War on Johnson,” Chicago Tribune, 24 May 1965.

In the conversation transcribed below, Clarence M. Mitchell Jr. spoke with President Johnson about the poll tax ban and his desire to include it in the legislation. Mitchell, nicknamed the “101st Senator,” was the top lobbyist for the NAACP and a key figure in the Leadership Conference for Civil Rights. On this day, Johnson was suffering from a cold, which is reflected in his voice and persistent sniffles.

President Johnson
Hello?
Clarence M. Mitchell Jr.
Hello?
President Johnson
Yes, Clarence.
Mitchell
Mr. President, how are you?
President Johnson
Oh, I’m pretty good, still grinding away. Hope you’re doing all right.
Mitchel
Well, with your kind of inspiration, the whole country is doing fine, and I’m right along with it.
President Johnson
Well, we’re doing the best we know how. Looks like they tell me today we’re going to try to move on cloture by next Saturday or maybe Monday.[note 4] The Senate could invoke cloture and shut down a filibuster only with support from two-thirds of present senators. In a historic moment on 10 June 1964, the Senate took this rare step, ending the 75-day filibuster of the Civil Rights Act, opening the way for an overwhelming passage on 19 June. In the Voting Rights Act that Johnson had introduced in March 1965, the Senate did not invoke cloture until 25 May (with 70 votes). It passed the bill the next day with 77 votes in support. The House approved its version on 10 July.
Mitchell
Yes, well, I was hoping very much I could have . . . I know you’re so busy that you have a time seeing people. But I was hoping we could get a chance to tell you the way we size up the situation on this poll tax amendment. And I think we can win on that. And I think we can win in a way that will keep everybody happy. And I hope so much we’d have a chance to say a word or two with you about that.
President Johnson
Well, you sure will, Clarence if you want to. I’ve . . . I’m not a lawyer. And I left it up to [Nicholas] Nick [Katzenbach].[note 5] Nicholas “Nick” Katzenbach was U.S. assistant attorney general from 1961 to 1962; U.S. deputy attorney general from April 1962 to January 1965; acting U.S. attorney general from September 1964 to January 1965; U.S. attorney general from February 1965 to October 1966; and U.S. under secretary of state from October 1966 to January 1969. I told him in drafting the bill that I would like to lower it to 18 years, and I would like to repeal poll tax.
Mitchell
Yeah.
President Johnson
And he said that he would see what he could do about it. And he came back and told me that he thought that we would be less likely to get what we wanted if we followed those steps because he didn’t believe that you could do it and make it stand up by statute. And I’d had an old solicitor who used to be [Harold C.] Ickes’s under secretary [of the Interior], Alvin Wirtz, who was my lawyer always.[note 6] Harold L. Ickes was U.S. secretary of the interior from 1933 to 1946. Alvin J. Wirtz was a Texas state senator from 1922 to 1930; general counsel to the Lower Colorado River Authority; U.S. under secretary of the interior from January 1940 to May 1941; and an early political supporter of Lyndon Johnson. And he made me vote against repealing by statute [Mitchell acknowledges] about 15 times on that ground. And so when Nick came back and said that he didn’t believe that that could be done, that’s why the bill went up that way. I would like to see it repealed, if it could be repealed. I was hopeful that he and y’all could get together some way and get something that would stand up and would satisfy his doubts and y’all’s hopes.
Mitchell
[Chuckles.] Good, that’s a nice combination. And we’ve been working along that line. I think that Nick has about concluded that under the present state of the law, the Supreme Court could declare the poll tax is unconstitutional if it deprives people of the right to vote because of race. And I believe that the Court’s position would be strengthened if the Congress would make a finding that the poll tax is discriminatory and would say that it is banned as a result of this statute. I really don’t think we’d lose on that basis. And I’d—After all, nobody can know what the Supreme Court will do until the case gets up there. But I think Nick has modified his position somewhat, and I imagine it wouldn’t be too hard for him to come the rest of the way. There are a great many people up in Congress who feel that there is very good reason for getting rid of the poll tax by statute. And some of them, as you know, are good lawyers.
President Johnson
Well, I’m very anxious to get rid of it anyway you can legally and constitutionally. I’m in a pretty much of a box because for 15 years I’ve been voting for the constitutional amendments, campaigning on radio and television. I bought $2,400 worth of time when Mr. [Samuel T. “Sam”] Rayburn and I—eight to ten years ago—were trying to get Texas to repeal it, and we lost.[note 7] Samuel T. “Sam” Rayburn was a U.S. representative [D–Texas] from March 1913 to November 1961; Speaker of the House from September 1940 until his death in November 1961; and one of Lyndon Johnson’s political mentors.
Mitchell
Yeah.
President Johnson
I campaigned last time trying to get them to repeal it and we lost. I went down to Jack [B.] Brooks’s [D–Texas] district and campaigned and went to Dallas and all over.[note 8] Jack B. Brooks was a U.S. representative [D–Texas] from January 1953 to January 1995, and a close friend of Lyndon Johnson. But if he can ever get the point or any good lawyer that I have to trust that he says that we can legally do it, I would have another approach to it.
Mitchell
Well, Paul [A.] Freund who is up at Harvard University—[note 9] Paul A. Freund, an attorney in the office of the solicitor general during the late New Deal era, was a prominent faculty member at Harvard Law School from 1939 to 1976.
President Johnson
Yes, I know, he is very distinguished. I heard him give the Felix Frankfurter funeral oration the other day.[note 10] Felix Frankfurter was an associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from January 1939 to August 1962. Frankfurter had died on 22 February 1965.
Mitchell
Well, he has taken the position in a memorandum, which he sent to Senator [Edward M.] Ted Kennedy [D–Massachusetts], that this can be done by statute.[note 11] Edward M. “Teddy” Kennedy was a U.S. senator [D–Massachusetts] from November 1962 until his death on 25 August 2009, and Senate Democratic Whip from January 1969 to January 1971. And as I said, in our conversations with Nick, he’s been very friendly, and I think his position has changed a little, particularly because of this latest Supreme Court decision. The latest Supreme Court decision involves—
President Johnson
Virginia.[note 12] In a unanimous decision released on 27 April 1965, the Warren Court ruled that the 24th Amendment also outlawed the use of Virginia’s certificate of residency requirement. See Harman v. Forssenius 380 U.S. 528 (1965). Mm-hmm.
Mitchell
—Virginia poll tax, you know.
President Johnson
Mm-hmm.
Mitchell
And in it, the Court said that historically, this tax was used in Virginia for the purpose of discriminating against Negroes. To me, that seems like a pretty good signal that the Court would uphold a statute passed by Congress.
President Johnson
Well, you concentrate your efforts and reasoning on him because I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t want him to feel that I’m trying to override him—
Mitchell
Oh, no.
President Johnson
Or run out on him, because I picked him [as attorney general] primarily—
Mitchell
I know.
President Johnson
—because I thought you all had confidence in him—
Mitchell
We do indeed.
President Johnson
—and I thought that he was the best to do it. I had—they had some Texas fellows they wanted me to bring in, and I finally concluded that he would be the best for the nation. That’s what I did.
Mitchell
Well, we were delighted, Mr. President, when you appointed him. And we have a wonderful relationship. Our disagreements are intellectual, not emotional.
President Johnson
I know that. I know that. I talked to a fellow awhile ago that I was quite impressed with. I asked him if he knew you, and he said he did. And then I asked him if he knew you favorably, and he said yes, he thought that you were friendly. But I’d like to have your evaluation of him. His name is [Samuel C.] Jackson, and he’s from Kansas.[note 13] Samuel C. “Sam” Jackson was an original commissioner on the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission from June 1965 to 1968; vice president of the American Arbitration Association from 1968 to 1969; and U.S. assistant secretary of housing and urban development for metropolitan planning from January 1969 to 1973.
Mitchell
Yes. Mr. President, I can give you an unequivocal and enthusiastic endorsement of him. He worked with us in—when we were trying to get the civil rights bill through. [He] came up here at his own expense and worked with the members on the Republican side. He helped us get it through—get the bill through the Rules Committee. You know, we had to do a little maneuvering with some of the Republicans over there, and he did a wonderful job on that. And he has just consistently tried to be for constructive things not only in his own state, but around the country. He has a wonderful reputation out in Kansas and a very good military record. He was in the Judge Advocate’s office of the Air Force. In fact, [he] still is a reserve officer in that area. So I think he would be a very hardworking and fine addition.
President Johnson
I thought I might put him on this Equal Opportunity Commission.
Mitchell
Well, this would be wonderful.
President Johnson
I wanted Marjorie [M.] Lawson on there.[note 14] Marjorie M. Lawson worked for the Kennedy campaign in 1960; was appointed by President Kennedy in 1962 as the first black woman on the Washington, D.C., bench of the juvenile court and served until 1965; was a member of the President’s Committee for Equal Employment Opportunity; and became U.S. representative to the U.N. Economic and Social Council in 1965. She had been acquainted with President Johnson through her work with the Plans for Progress program and the EEOC, a committee that Johnson headed as vice president. She turned down the offer for the EEOC discussed here, but in September accepted an appointment to the Social Commission of the U.N. Economic and Social Council. “Former Judge Lawson to Get U.N. Appointment,” Washington Post, 12 September 1965. I thought she was judicious enough and able enough. And I wanted a woman and she doesn’t want to take it.
Mitchell
Well, I was hopeful that you would make that kind of a decision, too, Mr. President, because I have a tremendous amount of respect for her ability. I’m sorry to hear that she—
President Johnson
Why don’t you give her hell? Why don’t you all get me some good people now? I want to try to get this fellow [Morris B.] Abrams up in New York.[note 15] Morris B. Abram, a civil rights activist and attorney in New York, chaired the November 1965 White House Conference on Civil Rights (a gathering to chart out plans for the larger conference to come in 1966), and served as president of Brandeis University from 1968 to 1970. Do you know him?
Mitchell
Yes. I don’t know him well, but I know who he is.
President Johnson
Well, he’s exceptional, but he couldn’t do it on account of his wife’s health. I tried to get Marjorie; she can’t do it. None of them want to do it. I’ve got to get some good people, and . . .
Mitchell
Well, would you care to have me call Marjorie—
President Johnson
I just wish you would. I wish you’d just call her in, tell her you want to buy her lunch—
Mitchell
All right.
President Johnson
—and just say, “Now, you can’t emancipate people unless you emancipate them. You can’t do it over here sitting on some judge. You come do this, and there’ll be something else coming along in a year or two.” She’ll want to be an ambassador or a judge or something else. And we’re going to be here a while. And tell her that you’ll shove her for something bigger and better, but let’s get this started off. Get it started off right. She’s reasonable. She knows how to get along.
Mitchell
She does.
President Johnson
She has my confidence. And I think she likes me. She’s worked on my Equal Employment Committee for three or four years.
Mitchell
Yes.
President Johnson
And she was, I thought, very competent.
Mitchell
Well, I—
President Johnson
There are four or five people that I could put on there. I got to have a woman.
Mitchell
Yes.
President Johnson
I’d prefer to have a Negro woman.
Mitchell
Wonderful.
President Johnson
I would like to . . . I’d like Marjorie first. I’d like to take Patricia [Roberts] Harris, but I kind of thought I might get her something at the State Department because she’s got such a hell of a legal background.[note 16] Patricia Roberts Harris was a Washington, D.C., lawyer; associate dean of students and lecturer in law at Howard University from 1961 to 1963; a professor at Howard from 1963 to 1969; U.S. ambassador to Luxembourg from September 1965 to September 1967; and dean of Howard University’s Law School from 1969 to 1972. In August 1964, she delivered the seconding address for the President’s nomination at the Democratic National Convention.
Mitchell
Yes, she has.
President Johnson
She’s got all—every Phi Beta Kappa in the country and all the Order de Coif and everything you got. And she would be—could use [her] there. I could take Mrs. [D’Jaris Hinton Jenkins] Watson, who was on the Employment Committee, of New York.[note 17] D’Jaris Hinton Jenkins Watson served on the President’s Committee for Equal Employment Opportunity during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. President Johnson nominated her husband, James L. Watson, for the U.S. Customs Court, and he was confirmed in March 1966. [Her] husband’s a judge. [Mitchell acknowledges.] She’s not as aggressive as they are, but she has got a master’s degree, and she was a social worker, and she stands up and slugs and fights when you have to. She got me up a time or two, 2[:00] or 3:00 in the morning raising hell about things. [Mitchell laughs.] There are one or two others. I could take Edith Sampson out in Chicago.[note 18] Edith S. Sampson was a Chicago attorney, social worker, and political ally of Mayor Richard J. Daley; a U.S. representative to the United Nations from 1950 to 1953; a U.S. representative to NATO from 1961 to 1962; the first black woman appointed to the Municipal Court of Chicago in 1962; and associate judge for the Circuit Court of Cook County from 1966 to 1978. [Mitchell acknowledges.] But Marjorie is really my pick. And—
Mitchell
Oh, I think that’s a wonderful pick. And I’ll—
President Johnson
But I can’t get her to do it.
Mitchell
Well, I certainly don’t think there’s anybody in the country more persuasive than you, but I’d be happy to make another try at it.
President Johnson
Take her to lunch tomorrow or go see her, and tell her that I was talking to you on some other matters, and I told you I was disappointed in her. That I thought she’d take this, and get started off, and then go to something else. She doesn’t have to live with it a lifetime.
Mitchell
That’s right.
President Johnson
Because the first year is going to be the real test. And we got to have people that can be firm and fair and diplomatic enough not to just have the roof fall in. And she’s got all those qualities.
Mitchell
Well, I agree with you. And you know, I’ve been hoping to tell you about a wonderful experience I had in Texas, which shows how people can change. I was down in Longview about two or three weeks ago at a Freedom Fund Dinner of the NAACP.[note 19] Longview was a small city in east Texas not far from Lady Bird Johnson’s hometown of Karnack. And a few years ago I had tried to go to that community, and all of our officers were under arrest and there was an injunction issued by a judge, which said that if anybody came to town to hold a meeting, he’d be arrested. So, we couldn’t hold a meeting. And I was talking about this in my speech and saying how wonderful it was that times have changed. There was a judge sitting next to me, and somebody told me afterwords that this was the same judge who had tried to put us in jail before. [Both men laugh.]
President Johnson
[Unclear.]
Mitchell
The law that changed—
President Johnson
It wasn’t Otis [T.] Dunagan, was it?[note 20] This person referenced by Mitchell was likely not Otis T. Dunagan. The 57-year old Dunagan was a district judge in eastern Texas who had served in the Texas House of Representatives from 1933 to 1934 and 1937 to 1936, at the time Johnson was leading the Texas National Youth Administration. Dunagan was best known for two things: As a judge in 1956, he had resisted the operation of the NAACP in Texas, and in 1957, had issued an injunction that essentially banned the NAACP from operating there. In 1962, he presided over the criminal trial of agricultural promoter and accused swindler Billie Sol Estes who had loose ties to President Johnson. “Injunction Curbs NAACP in Texas,” Washington Post, 9 May 1957; “Otis T. Dunagan,” Legislative Reference Library of Texas, http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/legeLeaders/members/memberdisplay.cfm?memberID=1827.
Mitchell
I forget what his name was. He was a young fellow and very pleasant. And I—
President Johnson
Otis Dunagan, he tried to put me in jail [Mitchell laughs] in 1948 when I beat him. A state district judge?
Mitchell
Yes, I think he is. [President Johnson acknowledges.] He only seemed to be about [unclear]—
President Johnson
It wasn’t a federal judge was it?
Mitchell
Oh, no, no, no. He was—
President Johnson
Yeah, that’s Otis Dunagan. He . . . Well, that’s probably . . .
You think about that and call me back. And [unclear] Johnson, and you all talk to Nick, and I’ll talk to him tomorrow and see what we can do there. I don’t want to go over his head. I don’t want the poll tax. I told him I didn’t. I said, “I’ve been against it all my life. I’m against it now. I want to repeal it anyway you can repeal it.”
Mitchell
Mm-hmm. Well, I think that we can work out a little formula that would be a graceful way of doing this and not hurt anybody’s feelings. [Unclear]—
President Johnson
Not going to hurt mine if they put it in.
Mitchell
No, I didn’t mean you. I meant Nick and others who might have had different conclusions. I [unclear]—
President Johnson
Mm-hmm. [Pause.] I just don’t want them to ruin the bill, that’s all.
Mitchell
No, and we don’t either. The Lord knows that because we’re so happy the way you’ve taken over. I was up there that night. I don’t know whether you heard all that loud applause, but I was up there clapping. [Unclear]—
President Johnson
Sure did. [Mitchell chuckles] Sure did. Well, then there wasn’t a better evening for us than that one, wasn’t it?
Mitchell
It was really great, yeah.
President Johnson
The timing was right, too, wasn’t it?
Mitchell
I thought so, too. Well, the thing that amused me was that, you know, some of these people are supposed to be such segregationists—Senator [Allen J.] Ellender [D–Louisiana] and others—I noticed they were the first ones to clap you on the back and congratulating you, and they really—I think they meant it.[note 21] Allen J. Ellender was a U.S. senator [D–Louisiana] from January 1937 to July 1972, and chair of the Committee on Agriculture and Forestry from January 1951 to January 1953 and January 1955 to January 1971. [Laughs.]
President Johnson
Well, God Bless you. You let me hear from you.
Mitchell
All right, Mr. President. [President Johnson acknowledges.] Thank you.

Conversation ends.

White House Operator
Waiting.

 

Copyright 2014 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia. Reproduced by permission. Original source: “Lyndon B. Johnson and Clarence M. Mitchell Jr. on 4 May 1965,” Conversation WH6505-05-7580, Presidential Recordings Digital Edition [Lyndon B. Johnson and Civil Rights, Volume 2, ed. Kent B. Germany] (Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, 2014–). URL: http://prde.upress.virginia.edu/conversations/4005143